Curse

ss1986v2 · Feb 16, 2007, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

*Shudders*
I dont think ive ever used any of those skills on my Ele and she's done just fine getting through the game.

of course you have just fine; its pve. an empty skill bar with hero/hench will do just fine in most all of pve. it just seems like a waste to leave off such powerful skills for no other reason than to bring skills that wont see much use in a good group (GoE and MS, for example). by the time MS gets dropped, your target should be mostly dead anyway.

Ensign · Feb 16, 2007, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

I dont think ive ever used any of those skills on my Ele and she's done just fine getting through the game.

You can run pretty much anything you want and still get through the game. I've completed the Gate of Madness mission by moving my heroes around and wanding things, so I'm sure that someone who puts skills on their bar and uses them will have an easier time. Better builds let you accomplish what you're trying to do more quickly, with less deaths and a higher percentage chance of success. Optimal builds are not required for success.

Guild Wars PvE, at least the bulk of the main quests, is balanced so that players can run whatever kinds of characters they find 'fun' and still complete the missions.

Whenever I see Rebirth on a skill bar now, I know it's because the person who uses that skill bar has a radically different Guild Wars experience than I do. It's one where deaths are frequent, full party wipes are common, and everyone running away to try and Rebirth-extract to save the mission is a valuable tool. I know this because I join pugs infrequently to see how that portion of the population actually plays, and that's what I observe.

What your skillbar looks like to me, is the really basic 'I'm a nuker' build that someone who is used to playing with completely unreliable people would make. I won't sit here and try and explain the reasons why that bar is so weak, because your gameplay experience is so different. But suffice to say that if you played with reliable players and started to really focus on just how much you can do, you'd be shaking your head at that skillbar too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

Glyph of Sacrifice/Meteor Shower's the only way to go IMO.

I agree, and I'll add that the only reason to run that is because of the knockdowns. That can be valuable if you're doing some Deep / DoA style mass fire ele nuking, but otherwise you're getting very little milage out of that skill slot. At this point in time though, after the introduction of Nightfall skills and the recent skill buffs, there's no way I could justify bringing Meteor Shower on a skill bar. You get so little out of that skill slot, not to mention the ridiculous costs for the effect. In 99% of applications it's the ele equivilent of the whammo's Mending - a horribly underpowered solution to a poorly understood problem.

Peace,
-CxE

Danger Russ · Feb 16, 2007, 11:32 PM // 23:32

This is a dangerous noncookie cutter build I like to use.

E/me

16 fire
13 ES

ISMOKEM

Aura of Restoration
Fire Attunement
Starburst (E)
Arcane Echo
Fireball
Glyph of lesser energy
Flameburst
Meteor Shower

This build is designed to kill small groups quickly and is flexible in its attack range.

Get your enchantments up

For large groups, you can cast glyph -arcane echo-meteor shower -fireball -meteor shower up. Weakens group. pick off weak casters with starburst and flameburst combo.

For small groups especially tight groups - target casters first, cast glyph, meteor storm, arcane echo, starburst (on monk target or other squishy)
while MS is making its presence know Starburst will drag you to melee range for your target. Once you contact him you hit him with starburst - flameburst -arcane echo starburst - fireball ball. The damage is unreal and it effects everyone nearby. starburst and flame burst are ready for reuse seconds later. It is so cool getting off 4 starbursts on a group. Warriors get killed too. Rangers will survive so leave them alone and run back to the group.

fun-fun-fun!!!! Be careful your defense is massive offense.

bungusmaximus · Feb 17, 2007, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katari

Yeah, you can get past PvE with just about anything really. When you start henching it, the quality of skillbars in your party drops. Good 'ole Cynn has a somewhat pooor bar as well, but she's better than nothing.

Meteor Shower is really not that great when you're playing with a good team.

That really depends on style imo. I always use MS ahead of the combat, not if the team has already engaged. The latter is indeed a good way to waste your MS. You are right about cutting thru PvE with anything, but I rather cut in style, it's more fun

.

Grammar · Feb 18, 2007, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I played around with Mark of Rodgort in a Searing Flames build today and I was really unimpressed, to be perfectly honest. It doesn't do anything at all until the third cast of Searing Flames - that one will deal damage instead of cause burning - but you're one cast behind from casting Mark of Rodgort to begin with. So really, Mark doesn't start showing value until your fifth cast of Searing Flames on the same target...which happened so rarely as to be laughable.

Actually, you have the combo wrong.

You're assuming: MoR -> SF...(2 sec)...SF...(2 sec)...SF...(2 sec)...etc.

The correct combo: SF -> MoR -> SF...(2 sec)...SF...(2 sec)...SF..(2 sec)...etc.

The correct placement of MoR is AFTER the first SF cast, during the first 2 second downtime. This way, you don't end up one cast behind like you would if you casted MoR first.
This does, however, delay the casting of GG until the second 2 second downtime, but I hardly think that makes much of a difference.
The other benefit of MoR in a SF/GG build is that it makes GG more reliable (GG energy bonus basically becomes guaranteed).....because nothing sucks quite like just-barely missing the burning on your GG cast and therefore just-barely missing the energy bonus (which can happen from time to time now with the shorter burning duration).

I originally shunned MoR in a SF build too. I even made a post slamming it a while back, saying the exact same thing you said about being one cast behind with MoR.
But then the above combo dawned on me, I smacked myself in the head for not realizing it sooner, and I've been using it ever since the SF nerf.

My post-nerf PvE SF build:

Fire: 16 (12+3+1)
Energy Storage: 11 (10+1)
Wilderness Survival: 8

-Fire Attunement
-Aura of Restoration (cover enchantment + some minor top-off heals here and there)
-Glyph of Lesser Energy (perma-20sec recast with SQ)
-Serpent's Quickness
-Searing Flames
-Mark of Rodgort
-Glowing Glaze
-Sunspear Rebirth Signet

Definitely less utility than a E/Mo with Heal Party and a hard rez, but the damage output from machine-gunning SF under SQ without ever having to restart the burning is just nuts.
And, as stated above, SQ at 8 WS syncs up perfectly with GoLE. Every GoLE cast is immediately preceded by SQ:
SQ begins -> cast GoLE..........(20 seconds)..........cast GoLE -> SQ ends..........(20 seconds)..........SQ begins -> cast GoLE.....(etc.)
Basically, you can get 2 GoLE casts in per SQ duration, and then start the process again with no downtime.

I admit though that the idea of running a hybrid damage/support Ele built around Mind Blast is pretty neat stuff. Would probably be great in PuGs. Anything to help out those poor Breeze/Orison monks, lol.

yaxattax · Feb 18, 2007, 08:24 PM // 20:24

I use 16 fire magic 15 estorage
E/Me

Mantra of recovery [E]
Meteor Shower
Incendiary Bonds
Fireball
Glowing gaze
Fire Attunement
Glyph of Elemental Power
Res sig or Sunspear Rebirth sig

Start with fire attune, use the glyph then launch the meteor shower at the target, just as its near the end of casting activate mantra of recovery, and throw in incendiary bonds & fireball immediately, this will give for a massive spike on the second hit of the meteor shower. Follow up with glowing gaze for energy. Use incendiary & fireball again to finish any stragglers.

Katari · Feb 18, 2007, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by yaxattax

I use 16 fire magic 15 estorage
E/Me

Mantra of recovery [E]
Meteor Shower
Incendiary Bonds
Fireball
Glowing gaze
Fire Attunement
Glyph of Elemental Power
Res sig or Sunspear Rebirth sig

Start with fire attune, use the glyph then launch the meteor shower at the target, just as its near the end of casting activate mantra of recovery, and throw in incendiary bonds & fireball immediately, this will give for a massive spike on the second hit of the meteor shower. Follow up with glowing gaze for energy. Use incendiary & fireball again to finish any stragglers.

You're sacrificing 75hp for a mere 6 energy. You're also wasting an elite simply to cut the recharge of a awkward and overrated spell down to 30s, which is still a terrible recharge time. All for weaker damage than a SF or a Mindblast ele can dish out, with zero room for utility.

On the upside, it is technically better than nothing, although it's questionable if that is a better bar than Cynn's.

yaxattax · Feb 18, 2007, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katari

You're sacrificing 75hp for a mere 6 energy. You're also wasting an elite simply to cut the recharge of a awkward and overrated spell down to 30s, which is still a terrible recharge time. All for weaker damage than a SF or a Mindblast ele can dish out, with zero room for utility.

On the upside, it is technically better than nothing, although it's questionable if that is a better bar than Cynn's.

You are right. I am sacrificing 75 hp for 6 energy. However that is my choice to make and I made it. Also bearing in mind that when I play with my elementalist I play more than just fire nuker, I have a weapon set and headgear for each type of magic because I play them all frequently. Also you are only looking at the inherent effect of the superior energy storage rune which translates to extra effectiveness on energy storage skills, alternatively I can then take two levels out of that attribute as it would be as if i had a minor rune, except that i can invest 6 or 7 in a 3rd attribute, or raise a 3rd attribute to 10 or 11 if i choose to drop the magic type that is 16 to 15, for example when I want to take skills such as heal party or psychic distraction.

The thread asked for PvE nuker builds, I suggested one that I have found to be effective in some situations, and all you could do was criticise without taking any proper insight as to how my character is run by me. Given that no build can be effective in ALL situations anyway you are just nitpicking.

Extra note - if the elite functions as intended, its not wasted is it? Just because I have pulled it from another professions primary attribute, it doesn't mean it lacks its effect (in this case).

Samuel Dravis · Feb 18, 2007, 10:03 PM // 22:03

yaxattax, why not just use Glyph of Renewal if that's what you're going for anyway?

draco inferno · Feb 18, 2007, 10:15 PM // 22:15

whoa there buddy. no one's judging you. this thread is for build suggestions and help with ideas. all that katari did was provide thoughts on the weaknesses of your build. that's what we're all about: helping each other out by discussing build ideas. dont take it personally.

in terms of the sup e storage rune, i still have to agree with katari. yeah, it's an opinion thing. i personally don't see the point in blowing 75 health over 6 energy. even if you are pressed for energy, switching to a double +15/-1 set can give you the boost you need to make it through the sticky situations.

in terms of your build, you get props in my book for creativity. however, with mantra as your elite, your primarily used spell has a recharge of 30 seconds (i HATE incendiary with a passion). with glyph of renewal, that casting time is reduced to 15 PLUS you have the option of casting it twice in a row. i agree with ensign in that MS is best suited for a quick KD spell, which glyph of sacrifice would work better with. in terms of raw damage, you dish it out pretty fast in the beginning, making for a nice early spike. but your usefulness will then be mitigated a bit as the battle drags on. instead of having the ability to rapidly change targets, you give very high damage to one small area. while that's nice in a lot of situations, the way things are now, you need the ability to change rapidly as the battle drags on. stuff just dies way too fast already in competent groups, which makes quick recharge time skills like SF and mind blasters beautiful for standard pve.
one thing your build is very nice for is tough spots with large, high-health mobs (raisu and fow come to mind). but for general pve, i would rather use an sf or mind blaster.
again, this is all intended to be constructive criticism. if you like playing this build, then more power to you. just remember man: it's a game!

yaxattax · Feb 18, 2007, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Because glyph of renewal operates only on the next spell, and I found the 15 second recharge time on Incendiary Bonds incredibly annoying - i.e it was never recharged when I needed it, also the Mantra allows for more controlled repetition of a spell rather than the mindless meteor shower spamming that leads to ridiculous exhaustion. The mantra method allows for a meteor shower and incendiary combo every 30s with incendiary combos in between as necessary, and allows you to recover exhuastion fully between dropping meteor showers. Not much other point really than that. But it works ^^

yaxattax · Feb 18, 2007, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by draco inferno

whoa there buddy. no one's judging you. this thread is for build suggestions and help with ideas. all that katari did was provide thoughts on the weaknesses of your build. that's what we're all about: helping each other out by discussing build ideas. dont take it personally.

in terms of the sup e storage rune, i still have to agree with katari. yeah, it's an opinion thing. i personally don't see the point in blowing 75 health over 6 energy. even if you are pressed for energy, switching to a double +15/-1 set can give you the boost you need to make it through the sticky situations.

in terms of your build, you get props in my book for creativity. however, with mantra as your elite, your primarily used spell has a recharge of 30 seconds (i HATE incendiary with a passion). with glyph of renewal, that casting time is reduced to 15 PLUS you have the option of casting it twice in a row. i agree with ensign in that MS is best suited for a quick KD spell, which glyph of sacrifice would work better with. in terms of raw damage, you dish it out pretty fast in the beginning, making for a nice early spike. but your usefulness will then be mitigated a bit as the battle drags on. instead of having the ability to rapidly change targets, you give very high damage to one small area. while that's nice in a lot of situations, the way things are now, you need the ability to change rapidly as the battle drags on. stuff just dies way too fast already in competent groups, which makes quick recharge time skills like SF and mind blasters beautiful for standard pve.
one thing your build is very nice for is tough spots with large, high-health mobs (raisu and fow come to mind). but for general pve, i would rather use an sf or mind blaster.
again, this is all intended to be constructive criticism. if you like playing this build, then more power to you. just remember man: it's a game!

To be honest my build was posted with FoW in mind ^^ its where I used it

I don't nuke in other places, I find other elements more useful, fire magic is generally overrated. Or sometimes I just take all domination skills and play as a mesmer (on my ele)

«Ripskin · Feb 19, 2007, 06:39 AM // 06:39

Well.. I'm not reading any posts.. so this is my build..
1. Liquid Flame
2. Immolulate
3. Fireball
4. Meteor shower
5. Arcane Echo
6. elemental Attunement
7. Fire attunement
8. sunspear rebirth (or just rez signet...)

It's all good. It's the easiest build of them all :\ I'ms ure someone along the line put down this exact build.

Dr Strangelove · Feb 19, 2007, 07:08 AM // 07:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by yaxattax

Because glyph of renewal operates only on the next spell, and I found the 15 second recharge time on Incendiary Bonds incredibly annoying - i.e it was never recharged when I needed it, also the Mantra allows for more controlled repetition of a spell rather than the mindless meteor shower spamming that leads to ridiculous exhaustion. The mantra method allows for a meteor shower and incendiary combo every 30s with incendiary combos in between as necessary, and allows you to recover exhuastion fully between dropping meteor showers. Not much other point really than that. But it works ^^

If you really feel that the recharges on your other fire magic skills are too painful, I'd suggest serpent's quickness over mantra of recovery- it doesn't waste an elite, it doesn't drain your energy as badly, and you can put attribute points in WS to improve the duration. As others said, if you want the fast recharge on MS only, glyph of renewal is a vastly better choice.

I personally feel that ibonds is a weak skill - it's almost impossible to make the AoE hit where you want, or even to hit at all if your target dies. The only times I bring it is when I already have fireball, rodgorts, and a ticking AoE on my bar and don't feel that I'd gain any benefit from some other utility on my bar (rarely).

Also, there is never, ever a reason to run energy storage at 14 or above. Usually more than 10 is overkill, and I sometimes run builds with it as low as 4. A couple reasons for this-

1: Your only benefit from superior ES is +6 energy. No skills improvements, no passive effects, no happy bells and whistles. Just 6 energy which is enough for, um, flare. Once.

2: 380 health makes you very spike prone, and the slightest touch of dp will leave you dying in one hit. I can't tell you how frustrating it is to watch double sup eles die in one hit from environmental effects.

Ensign · Feb 19, 2007, 09:32 AM // 09:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

I can't tell you how frustrating it is to watch double sup eles die in one hit from environmental effects.

I can tell you that I derive amusement from watching double suped eles die over and over whenever anything looks a them funny. You have to be sure to ask them if they're running double supes after they blow up for the third time. Remember, if they didn't know they were too fragile to be useful with double supes, they certainly don't know they're too fragile with double supes and 40% DP. *grins evilly*

No, I don't pug when I actually care about the results, do you?

Peace,
-CxE

Mouse at Large · Feb 19, 2007, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Fire attune
GoLE
SF
GG
Mark of Rodgort
Liquid Flame
MS
Aura of Rest

16 Fire
13 ES

With Guildies and heros in PvE, a res should not be needed

P.S.

MS is there purely for boss mobs. Send in the melee classes, bunch them up, Rodgort/MS/SF/Liquid Flame then move on

Ensign · Feb 19, 2007, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammar

Actually, you have the combo wrong.

I did indeed. Casting it after the first SF or before doesn't make a difference, so you save a couple seconds that way. Good catch. In terms of energy though it's still identical - you only get extra damage out of Searing Flames on the (equivilent) of the 5th cast. The time compression does clearly help though.

I should say I was wrong anyway about being a cast behind on time before - at worst, you'd be only half a cast behind on time by opening with Mark of Rodgort.

Right now for heavily clustered, SF/Mark style mobs, I'm enjoying Savannah Heat -> Deep Freeze -> Searing Heat -> Teinai's Heat. Mobs don't start to run until the Deep Freeze hits and then it's too late.

Peace,
-CxE

draco inferno · Feb 20, 2007, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Right now for heavily clustered, SF/Mark style mobs, I'm enjoying Savannah Heat -> Deep Freeze -> Searing Heat -> Teinai's Heat. Mobs don't start to run until the Deep Freeze hits and then it's too late.

how would glyph+MS+earthbind affect this string? something like earthbind-> deep freeze -> glyph -> MS -> savannah -> searing heat -> teinais heat. maybe throw savannah before glyph for some faster damage. yeah, it would be a high energy/long recharge spike build, but i really can't forsee anything escaping it... ever.

Grammar · Feb 20, 2007, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Right now for heavily clustered, SF/Mark style mobs, I'm enjoying Savannah Heat -> Deep Freeze -> Searing Heat -> Teinai's Heat. Mobs don't start to run until the Deep Freeze hits and then it's too late.

Damn, that's one hell of a destructive combo there, lol.
That sequence will utterly violate cluster #1, but what if there's a cluster #2?

The problem I have with fire bars like that is the "now what?" part that comes after you unleash your combo.
The recasts on that particular combo are 25, 15, 30, and 30, respectively, so you'll have some down time in there. I suppose there's always wanding and/or Heal Party.

I guess what drew me to Searing Flames is the complete lack of any downtime. It's perpetual if the rest of your build is proper.
The obvious downside of this is that is doesn't allow for any utility or flexibility. Now that I added MoR to my SF bar on account of the SF nerf, my entire bar has been consumed by SF and the skills needed to run it (save for a rez).
But in the world of PvE, that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make when playing Ele. Ele is the only class in GW where I feel it's perfectly acceptable to be built for 100% damage and 0% utility in PvE (again, save for rez).
Meh, but maybe that's just me.

Ensign · Feb 20, 2007, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by draco inferno

how would glyph+MS+earthbind affect this string?

Meteor Shower + Earthbind is not a combo - instead of getting 3 2 second knockdowns with 1s in between, you get 2 3 second knockdowns with 3 seconds in between. The only thing it accomplishes is guaranteeing that the second meteor hits if the first one does, but they're virtually guaranteed to get away after that.

All you're really doing by adding GoS/MS is lowering the ovarall damage and AoE of the 'heavy nuking'. The timing on that sequence works so that Teinai's Heat finishes ticking about the time Deep Freeze expires. If you wanted to slip in a GoS/MS, you'd want to do it after the Searing Heat, before the Teinai's, to make the knockdown matter...but really, that stack of DoTAoEs does enough damage that the MS is pretty much worthless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammar

Damn, that's one hell of a destructive combo there, lol.
That sequence will utterly violate cluster #1, but what if there's a cluster #2?

Well that's a bar I'd only really ever run in the Deep or DoA, where you're clustering everything up to be blasted. There really isn't a second cluster there ever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammar

Ele is the only class in GW where I feel it's perfectly acceptable to be built for 100% damage and 0% utility in PvE

It's about as acceptable as building physicals solely for damage. As long as you have some other guys taking care of basic utility roles, you can get away with it.

Peace,
-CxE